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BAFTA
winner JAKE GYLLENHAAL - Love and war
[An in-depth interview with actor Jake Gyllenhaal]
“I think that no matter what I always look for humanity, like
I always look for a sense of hope. It can be in the bleakest story
but I don’t buy total perversity, utter perversity without hope. I
may be naïve but I believe that there is good to all of this, and
those are the things that move me. That’s definitely a part of my
upbringing. The best part of my upbringing [laughs]. And then the
perversity plays a part of the other part of my upbringing. But
without the hope, I don’t think anything really, really works; in
particular, movies and stories.”
Have you been
surprised by the way that Brokeback Mountain has been embraced not
just by critics but also by the public in America?
“You know, I am
surprised both critically and publicly. I think the thing that’s
most interesting about it is I’ve never before, when I’ve been
in any movies, felt like the critics are the public. And when I
talk to particularly journalists, and men in particular, they say,
‘I mean I’m straight and everything but, er, it’s really a
movie about friendship, right? Right!?’ you know, like they’re
justifying it in whatever way they can, so it becomes a
discussion. At first, when we went to all the festivals and did
press, I was very surprised that people were talking to us that
way. Ang [Lee, the director] said people don’t really come up
and ask him questions. They tell him how they’re feeling. So as
we were talking to journalists, even the critics, we all felt like
it was a different feeling than usual, and it was like they were
an audience for the first time.
“I think the film
also represents something to [the gay community]. My godfathers
are gay and they told me a lot about how important the film is to
their community. Just in theory it’s a very special thing for
them, you know? But at the same time I also think it’s a very
conventional love story, too. So in a way I’m not surprised by
the response. It’s definitely done in an unconventional way and
in an unconventional context, but it’s very conventional, and in
that way love stories always produce that kind of swell.”
It’s the
gay angle though which makes it risky and, in the current
conservative climate in America, political as well.
“I would hope so. I
mean yeah, it stirs people up. It feels new. That’s what I love
most when I read scripts, or when I’m reading anything: I want
it to feel new, like you have never seen it before. Like an
audience is going to go in and go, ‘Oh, that’s a whole other
angle, or a whole other side, that we haven’t dusted off
yet.’”
Brokeback
Mountain is one of a number of gay-themed films coming out,
presumably partly in response to the rise in conservative
attitudes. Was that in your thinking when you took the project on?
“[Deep breath]
First, it’s always about how I emotionally, instinctually react
to the story. I don’t choose my films as a social or a political
move, and that’s not my first motivation ever. I mean, somehow,
maybe the way I was brought up and what I consider important is
involved in those instincts somewhere, you know what I mean?
[Smiles] I know a lot of young actors that didn’t want to do
this film, and thank God they turned it down, because they were
first choices over me. And maybe their political background and
how they were brought up played into their instincts in responding
to the material. But all I can say is that when I read it, I got
past something and saw what was so beautiful about the film. I
wasn’t consciously going, ‘This is really going to rock ‘em
and they’re really going to be surprised, and we’re going to
really give ‘em a one-two here.’ I was given a one-two by the
script [laughs], you know what I mean? I couldn’t not do it.”
Brokeback
Mountain and Jarhead are not only more controversial than anything
else you have done but, dare I say it, more mature, at least in
terms of your roles. Do they feel like the start of a new chapter?
“Definitely.
Hopefully without presumption, definitely. These movies are the
first time I have done anything completely on my own, without
asking people what they thought of them and if I should do them or
not. I feel like I’m searching for a process in my acting --
Brokeback was the beginning of this and Sam really encouraged it
on Jarhead – but on these I felt like I was going to show up and
whatever I was actually feeling on the day, if I was not getting
along with Heath [ledger, on Brokeback Mountain] or not getting
along with Peter [Sarsgaard, on Jarhead], or I was getting along
with Peter and I shouldn’t have been in the scene, I was going
to use it. So I was working in a territory that was less
structured than I’d ever been in before.”
So your
approach was much more instinctive than usual?
“Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Somebody, the other day, described Brokeback to me, and they said,
‘It starts sad, it is sad, and it ends sad, and you walk out
like that’. I think Heath and I were both in that sadness for
four or five months, and it took us a while to get out of it. I
just tried to carry those things with me.”
Did you go
straight on to Jarhead from Brokeback?
"I had three
months in between. But I got the role when I was doing Brokeback,
and I finished and just started working out. That was the
beginning of the end.”
Do you think
the American public is going to have the stomach for Jarhead the
way that it has for Brokeback Mountain? They can see images from
Iraq on the news every day, why should they worry about a soldier
who doesn’t engage the enemy?
“Well it has come
out in America. It was interesting the way it was marketed. What
is fascinating to me was the expectations that people have one,
for a Sam Mendes film, and two, for a war film. What happened with
the film was that it was marketed in such a way, I think, that
people believed it to be one thing and it actually ended up being
another thing. And that other thing was a film that’s filled
with a tremendous ambiguity, there are many questions posed and
not much answered, I think there’s a very disassociative factor
to the whole thing where you walk through it and can’t really
get a grasp on everything that’s happening at all times. You
know, people keep saying, ‘Oh, it’s a war film with no war,’
which is very disturbing to me; but it’s really a war film where
they see little action, that the war that they have is a war in
their mind.
“That was the war
for the soldiers who fought in the first Gulf War, and that’s
very special to them and it means a lot to them. I think people
just sort of expect somehow that blood is war and that somehow
even though they’re disturbed by those ideas and seeing those
things, really disturbed, it’s conventional and they understand
it, and they know somehow that when they go into a movie they’re
going to see that, and that’s what they expect. So it makes
people feel very uncomfortable when they don’t walk out having
seen any of that.”
It seems to
be very much a film about frustration. Not just the frustration of
not going into battle but also sexual frustration. And the film
itself seems designed to frustrate the pornographic thrill which
Anthony Swofford, the author of Jarhead, and the character
you’re playing, says in the book soldiers get from watching
films that are supposed to be anti war, like Apocalypse Now.
“Yeah, and in the
film there’s the extra irony of Walter Murch having been the
editor of both Jarhead and Apocalypse Now in that scene [where the
soldiers watch Apocalypse Now]. Um, yeah, I mean look, I don’t
think you have to do much as a young man to create frustration
[laughs]. You know what I mean? Any type of frustration, be it
mental or sexual or whatever. That’s the primary reason why I
felt like I wanted to do the role. I felt so strongly about
playing it because it is a time in my life where I feel these
feelings of frustration and anger, and that feeling of wanting to
punch your fist through a wall and not understanding why. What I
think I have discovered about the military, in my short and
peripheral experience of it, is that they harness those feelings
and focus them towards an end. They give them meaning through
missions. I think that is the intention of the film. It’s almost
the mindset of that. I think that for a lot of people, it creates
a very ambiguous and also a very varied response, you know, as it
should. I don’t think there’s any other intention besides
that.”
The film’s
sexualisation of war and the way that we see the men’s sexual
drives becoming re-directed towards a lethal end is interesting.
“And also,
ultimately, against themselves. If you’re trained to kill and
you don’t get to go and kill other people, then you end up
trying to kill each other. That’s the thing. When you leave 12
guys in the middle of the desert there, they’re bound to do
something odd.”
I read a
quote from your mother where she said that she and your father
tried to impress upon you and your sister, Maggie, a kind of
secular humanism with a dash of politics as children. What did
that mean in practise and how do you think it informs your outlook
today, and the choices you make in your work?
“I think that no
matter what I always look for humanity, like I always look for a
sense of hope. It can be in the bleakest story but I don’t buy
total perversity, utter perversity without hope. I may be naïve
but I believe that there is good to all of this, and those are the
things that move me. That’s definitely a part of my upbringing.
The best part of my upbringing [laughs]. And then the perversity
plays a part of the other part of my upbringing. But without the
hope, I don’t think anything really, really works; in
particular, movies and stories.”
Sorry,
what’s the perversity in your upbringing?
“Oh, I just mean,
you know, like every child . . . I think that no one had a great
childhood, no matter what they say. Even though we all pretend
that we want to go back and be children again, I don’t think we
would really want to, you know? That’s what I mean. Those ounces
of perversity, or maybe pounds, whatever, varying degrees for
everybody, but I just think that we all have had our share of pain
as children. Being a child is very hard in this world, no matter
how you were brought up, and I can see easily how you could spin
that in my case [laughs], but still, no matter what.”
Yes, people
assume that you had this charmed upbringing because you were
surrounded by all these glamorous people.
[Smiles] “Yes, I
know.”
Do they annoy
you, the assumptions people make? I read a piece recently where
the writer seemed almost irritated by the fact that you could even
consider doing something other than you are now, like carpentry or
whatever, because you were living the dream, he said, of many
young men -- although I think it was probably actually his dream.
“Well, I actually
do enjoy carpentry. It might annoy him but unfortunately it’s
something I really do actually enjoy, and to me it’s a little
offensive if, you know, somebody thinks that it’s like not as
exciting a job. Because, personally, I am happiest when I’m
building a table for my mom, you know? Which I did, and do, and I
love woodwork, you know? Our interests are all varying. I don’t
know why I find joy and calm doing that but I do.
“And yeah, my
upbringing: it’s funny how people tinge it and move it however
they want to for whatever they need to move it for. People say,
you know, ‘Oh, Paul Newman taught you how to drive, right?’
and I say, ‘No, my father really taught me how to drive and
he’s getting a really bum rap because one day Paul Newman did
take me out to the race track.’ I said that once when I was
doing press when I was 16 years old and now that’s all people
write. Believe me I was in awe when it happened. But I think
people do sometimes, when I talk to journalists or whatever, kind
of like to go, ‘Well, it was this way, wasn’t it?’ I don’t
know, I don’t understand it completely, but I understand them
[sighs]. . . I have been through a lot even just recently. In the
past couple of days, it’s been very interesting to hear what
people have to say about how I was brought up, because my
experience of it was very different.”
Do you sense
a kind of envy? The journalist who wrote the piece I’m referring
to said you were living the life that many young men dream of
having. I’m not sure whether that’s true or not . . .
[Laughs]
Do you have a
sense of carrying people’s dreams with you?
[We both Laugh]
“Yeah, right. I have no sense of anything and you can quote me
on that. [Laughs] No, I’m surprised at how much people love
Brokeback Mountain [can’t contain his giggles], everything’s a
surprise to me, what people feel about different things. It’s
amazing how people are responding to different things and what
bothers people and what doesn’t. Unfortunately, it seems, I’m
always trying to be as honest as I can and, unfortunately, that
honesty can be used how anybody wants to use it.”
Is it true
that your bah mitzvah was held at a homeless shelter?
[Embarrassed laugh]
“Yes, it’s true. That’s part of my upbringing. Yeah, you
know, I think I did grow up with privilege, and I think my mum was
always very keen and very careful of us having perspective on the
world. So yeah, as a young kid I would feed the homeless, we would
buy turkeys for Thanksgiving, and we would go bring them to the
homeless. Yeah, we would do all those things. It’s something I
take for granted and now when I talk about it in the press,
obviously, it sounds like however it sounds. But to me, that was
my mother being very conscious of giving us a perspective, and
ultimately I think it has really influenced me. I think it’s
really important. I think every child, no matter what, should have
perspective wherever they’ve grown up or been brought up, be
free of judgement.”
But on your
bah mitzvah? Aren’t we Jews made to feel guilty enough already?
[We laugh] “I guess
so. But no, I have a lot of other things. But yeah, you’re
right. Well, because my father was Christian too, you know, I
think my parents were always a little unclear in terms of how they
wanted to raise us. But actually they were very clear about it. I
think they wanted to share everything and all those ideas with us,
so when it came around to having a bah mitzvah and doing that, I
think they split the opportunity and basically realised that in
order to do that, ‘Well, let’s go feed the homeless
[laughs]’. Like that would be the most logical religious
response to both Christianity and Judaism, so that was it
[laughs].”
Apparently
Sam Mendes first started thinking about you for Jarhead when he
saw you on stage in London in This Is Our Youth. That was your
stage debut. Why was it important for you to take to the boards at
that point, and why in London?"
"Again, it was
like I read the script and it’s an amazing play. It’s a
masterpiece. And a masterpiece for someone at the age that I was
at doesn’t ever come along. What was interesting is that I
don’t think at the time I was like, ‘Oh, it’s in London’,
and I never realised what that pressure was, and I think that
naivety was a good thing, you know? That play in particular has
totally changed my life. John Madden [who directed him and Gwyneth
Paltrow in Proof] came to see me in that play, Sam came to see me
in that play, consequently four or five other directors that I
hopefully will work with in the future saw me in that play, and
those opportunities have brought me all the movie opportunities I
have gotten. As a movie actor, your representation always says,
‘Don’t do that. Don’t do a play because you could do this or
that and make money, and blah, blah, blah.’ But so many more
opportunities have come from it. And, I was just saying as I was
coming over here, at the time, which is probably a good thing, I
don’t think I realised how special of an experience that really
was. In fact I remember our stage manager turned to me and Hayden
[Christiansen] and Anna [Paquin], like four or five days into the
run, and said, ‘Cherish this time because you’ll never have an
opportunity or have an experience like this again because it’s
really an extraordinary feeling to be such a success that way your
first time.’ I remember registering that and being like, ‘OK,
time to have fun.’ It was amazing. The next thing I’m going to
do will be on stage, without a doubt.”
Yes, I
wondered whether you’d like to keep going between film and the
stage, because that play and your performance in it were huge
successes.
“I just think I’m
fed by it. I’m sucked dry by film and I think I’m fed by
theatre. There’s a start and stop to film where you give and you
give and you give, and you don’t have that give and take like
you do in the theatre, and I think it’s just necessary. I get
rid of bad habits, but it just fills me. Right now I have a
responsibility to the next film director I work with to get filled
up again before I go out on the race track again.”
Which
director? David Fincher, your director on Zodiac?
“No, I’m working
with him now. He’s sapping it right now [laughs]. He does a lot
of takes.”
When I
interviewed Fincher for Panic Room, he struck me as a very
technical director. How is he to work with from an actor’s point
of view?
“You know, I think
initially I thought the same thing about him, and when we first
started working I felt that way. I thought he was a real
technician and visualist and that seemed to be the most important
thing to him. But as we’ve worked together I feel like he really
does like actors, and he knows what’s really good in acting,
too. I have a real, real growing fondness for David and his
relationship to actors. To work with, though, we do on average 30
takes, and we do have up to 80. But I also think that’s great,
too. Every director seems to have a different, especially when
they’re really great, a real personality and style of making
their film. And they’ve all been so different and so wonderful
in all these different ways. I just hope that I’ve taken in as
much as I can from them because who knows when the opportunity
will come again to work with people like that. I don’t know,
it’s kind of amazing.”
Sam Mendes
has said that when he became serious about casting you for Jarhead
he was a little hesitant because he didn’t know if you could
become “enraged, violent and emotionally ugly”. Were you aware
of that and did you now that you had these things inside of you?
[Laughs]
“I did know about his hesitation completely. And his hesitation
made me hesitate. But I feel like I knew I had it in me.
[Hesitates] I think I knew I had it in me. And yet proving it to
him was a hard thing. Trying to get his faith that I could do it
was a hard thing, and it took a while.”
How did you
convince him?
[Hesitates] “I
mean, well . . . [clicks his fingers] at a certain point it was
like I read with him and I did a really bad job and I feel like he
moved off of me as a prospect. When I read the book, there was
something about how Tony [Swofford] wrote, which is with a deep
sensitivity and a real empathy and a real understanding and regret
for everything he had experienced, but at the same time a real
appreciation for it too. He walked this fine line and there’s a
conflict inside of him continuously about what he’s been through
and learning the things he learned, and not ever having wanted to
learn them; and then also at the same time just loving it too and
falling in love with it. Somewhere in me I just felt I could do
it. And I called Sam in the middle of the night and I said,
‘I’ll do anything to play this part. I’ll do anything.’ To
tell you the truth, I don’t know if I really knew. I put a lot
of faith in Sam and said to myself, ‘He’s good enough and he
knows. If he’s sure I can do it, then I know I can do it,
too.’”
You’ve said
recently that you realized in hindsight that both Brokeback
Mountain and Jarhead were films about extremes of loneliness and
what people discover about themselves there. Why do you think you
were looking for that at that point?
“Well the irony of
it is I don’t think at the time I knew that I was doing films
like that. Until I showed up on the set of Jarhead, in the middle
of the desert, in the middle of nowhere, you know, I didn’t
realise that I had been doing movies like that, and that maybe I
had been grappling with some sort of thing. I mean again, I can
see how you can say, ‘Where does this loneliness come from, or
this interest in loneliness?’ To me I think the most interesting
things happen when you sit with yourself and when you’re alone.
Like if you really let yourself be that way. When we were in
Calvary [on Brokeback Mountain], I was alone for a very long time;
I mean not even with Heath. We would get off work and we would be
literally in the middle of nowhere, living in trailers, on our
own. Sometimes we would get together and all have dinner together,
sometimes we’d all be alone. Something about the topography of
the spaces I was in, just sometimes even the geography, that it
was nowhere near anywhere I had ever been or knew at all, I needed
to explore. I needed to explore that territory. You grow up in a
city and there’s everything around you all the time, and I
don’t think you realise how lonely you are until you get out of
there. You know, what I think about Brokeback Mountain is that the
reason why these two men fall in love is out of loneliness. Like
there’s just nothing more in their lives when they meet and
it’s the best thing that happens to them when they meet there.
And the same thing, I think, in a weird way, Tony Swofford has to
go to that place of almost utter, desperate, horrible loneliness
in order to become, in a way, the writer that he became. I don’t
know, I just feel like you got to go to those places and somehow,
unconsciously, I was there all of a sudden. I don’t know really
why I picked those films.”
And have you
emerged a different person?
“Yes, definitely.
To me, it’s hard to be sitting here and dealing with the result,
you know, and talking about the result of them. For a long time I
was very interested in the result, what people thought and all
these things, but to me these experiences were not that at all. To
me I’m a different person because of the process of both of
these films, not because of the result of them. That, to me, is
really important to distinguish, regardless of people’s
judgements.”
Have you
discovered a greater sense of self?
“Uh, I think it’s
just like I’ve grown up [laughs]. I don’t know if it’s a
greater sense of self or just feeling a little closer to being
able to be an adult, and that is pretty hard in the movie
business, you know what I mean? [Laughs] But I feel that way. And
working with these people, what I’ve gotten from them as human
beings, like yes, Sam Mendes is a brilliant director, and yes, Ang
Lee is a brilliant director, and yes, David Fincher is a brilliant
director, and yes, Peter Sarsgaard is an amazing actor, and Heath
Ledger gives an incredible performance in the film, all those
things, but just the interactions that I have with them as human
beings, I’ll never forget. I talked to Ang last night and yeah,
he was my director and all those things, but he’s a wonderful
person. Sam and I spent a ton of time together as friends and that
matters to me the most and it’s because we’ve all been through
these experiences. I was in my trailer while Ang Lee was doing Tai
Chi outside of his every morning, for months, so we shared
something special. And that’s the most important thing to me
now.”
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